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Friday, April 29, 2005

Power of the Presidency, Marbury, and Torture

A question has arisen in comments about the question raised by Professor Yoo about whether these actions are such that Congress could regulate the President and his use of force.

We are concerned not really with what the President does, but in what circumstances the Court can tell the Executive that it has overstepped its bounds, and is taking unconstitutional actions. The question then, is not really the role of the Executive, but the role of the Court to constrain the Executive.

This, of course, is Marbury v. Madison. Marbury stands for the proposition that it is the role of the Court to decide which branch or body is to say what "The Law" is. Marbury means that the Court acts as a mediator among the actors of the government under the Constitution and, in the words of our dear Professor Monaghan, "allocat[es the] functions" of these bodies.

Note that this does not mean that the Court is to pass independent judgment on these bodies' actions. There is no "one form of review" that the Court exacts on legislative or executive action.

Consider, for example, Marbury (refusing to adopt a reasonable interpretation of Article III), Chevron (adopting a reasonable interpretation of a statute by an agency), Curtiss-Wright (refusing to scrutinize executive action in foreign affairs), Katzenbach (allowing Congress to adopt a reasonable interpretation of the equal protection clause (subsequently overruled)), and City of Boerne (refusing to defer to a reasonable interpretation of both Section 5 of the FOurteenth Amendment and the Free Exercise Clause). In each of these cases, the question for the Court is how closely to scrutinize the government--legislature or executive. Sometimes the Court defers to reasonable interpretations, sometimes exacts independent judgment.

This decision of the scope of review is dependent on the structure of the constitution and where it vests powers. Just a couple examples:

The Constitution vests regulation in Congress. The Court's role is not to decide how it would regulate, but to decide how Congress did regulate. Assuming that Congress isn't violating other parts of the Constitution, it should, then, pull all the meaning for "The Law" from the statute, not itself. Complete deference to Congress when acting within its powers. (Tribe, American Constitutional Law)

When Congress vests some of this power in an agency, the role of the Court is not to provide the meaning, but to make sure that the Agency is acting within the scope of its delegated authority, within its powers as vested. Complete deference within that scope. (Chevron; Monaghan, Marbury and Admin State)

The political question doctrine is merely a determination that the question asked is one that the Constitution directs the President to answer. The Court determines only that this is, in fact, a question for the President, and if it is, complete deference. (Henkin, Is there a Political Question)

So, the question for judicial review of Presidential actions in the war on terror--internment, torture, etc.--is the extent to which these actions are constitutionally-committed to the President such that they are not open for judicial review.

This is the discussion I would like to begin, both among fellow contributors and those who wish to comment.

I don't have the answer, only (I think) the question. My guess is that the regulation of prisons full of POW's and terrorists is something that is very tied to the Commander in Chief power, and something that the Courts, and the legislature for that matter, should not be in the business of regulating. Youngstown constrains these powers in their use against citizens, but I think POWs, and especially non-state terrorists should fall outside Youngstown's holding.

Anyway, comments welcome.

10 Comments:

Blogger David Schraub said...

Commented upon

8:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My guess is that the regulation of prisons full of POW's and terrorists is something that is very tied to the Commander in Chief power, and something that the Courts, and the legislature for that matter, should not be in the business of regulating.

"full of POW's and terrorists"... hmmm. And your use of "regulating", IMO, is incorrect.

Be that as it may, it seems like you're attached to a notion("should not be in business of"), but not so thoughful of the circumstance to which it applies(eg. "full of POW's and terrorists").

Given the context of your post (eg: Power of the Presidency, Marbury, and Torture), I would point out that the vast majority of folks who both disagree w/your "guess" and have followed this closely from the beginning, most strenously object to the seemingly indiscriminate presidential classification of "prisoners" (illegal combatents) while there is significant evidence many of these people do not meet the definition. Indeed, it seems there has not only been little effort to validate people so classified (as CIA/Pentagon reports on GITMO have said), GWB has argued before SCOTUS they were not responsable for doing so: it is the president's perogative to so classify... period.

This, I would hope, would give thoughtful people pause.

Anyway, I don't like that. And SCOTUS doesn't either it seems, given they've thumped GWB's argument every single time. Not to mention, many...many have proven to be innocents, soley as a product of their petitioning despite GWB's claim they should not be allowed to do so.

Youngstown constrains these powers in their use against citizens, but I think POWs, and especially non-state terrorists should fall outside Youngstown's holding.

why? Can you cite/explain a principle?

9:20 PM  
Blogger David Schraub said...

Now, I get the distinct feeling that you and I disagree on what Marbury stands for. That's a battle we can wage another day, I think. But let's take a look at this "partial deference," because I think that is what's key here.

I think the way "partial deference" comes about is when you have an abstract grant of power to one body that, as applied, ventures into territory held by another body. For example, the President can order the 101st Airborne around. That is entirely within his realm, and courts cannot touch it. If the President orders the 101 to burn down Detriot and torch all its inhabitants however, then the courts I think might legitimately have something to say. What we get, then, is that the president has total power to act once you get past constitutional restrictions. In the context of Hamdi and Al-Odah, it means that the President can do whatever he wants to these POWs/Detainees/Enemy Combatants (etc etc) as long as it doesn't violate their legal rights. The President can't starve them (IE, the courts can restrain him from starving them), but they can't question (give deference to) his decision to feed them bananas versus beefaroni.

The President cannot just assert the constitution means something it doesn't. You conceded that if these actions were taken against citizens, they'd clearly violate the bill of rights. Insofar as the applicable portions of the bill of rights applies to "persons", the president, if I may say so, is talking out of his ass. The court's are under no obligation to defer to the executive making random stuff up.

1:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As to Youngstown, the principle is that in the case, the President was regulating the domestic market, not the fighting of the war. So whereas he or she has great powers in foreign affairs and war, when dealing domestically, the Court does not award such significant deference. So, the argument with the detainees would go, the President gets deference in dealing with the foreigners (POWs, terrorists), but less deference when dealing with citizens.

and interestingly (or not), GWB chose GITMO (eg. offshore) as site to house "enemy combatants". In SCOTUS pleadings, they have argued both sides you present, as it suits them. They have also witheld inmates from both IRC & congressional oversight. And I would add, they've charged their own Islamic GI's twice with spying, in both cases turning out to be by non-existent evidence. Still, they proceeded with what appeared to be retaliatory charges which looked a lot like saving face.

Hmmm...
Your characterization of GWB getting thumped is correct, but entirely incomplete. For purposes of this discussion, what is important from those holdings is not who won or lost, but that the Court did not exact independent judgment, awarded some deference. The principles of deference are exactly what we're concerned with.

only if one wants to make "principles of deference" absolute. AFAIC, this should never, ever be the case.

I'd also point out that SCOTUS instructed GWB that GITMO "illegal combatents" were constitutionally guaranteed due process. GWB then proceeded an attempt to fullfill this requirement by military court proceedings at GITMO. The detainees were not allowed to see the evidence against them, speak to their lawyers in advance of hearings, nor summon witnesses. SCOTUS has called them on this.

Point being, if Presidential (or anyone else's) actions are unconstitutional, then they are unconstitutional. Period. When person/agency/??? executing these actions displays repeated disregard for the principles involved, then we have problems.

In other words, we have problems.

4:17 PM  
Blogger David Schraub said...

It's amazing how Korematsu, probably the most vilified court decision of the 20th century, has gotten resurrected all of the sudden because we've discovered taking away rights is convienant during wartime.

I think you are exploding the political question doctrine way beyond any reasonable interpretation. The reason is because you offer this weird view of the constitution as only having "objective meaning...when it is interpreted." (and then implying that any interpretation, no matter how fanciful, is a-ok [would you be so sanguine about the ISC clause being expanded to include every which regulation under the sun?]). The constitution may not have a singular meaning, but it does have a bounded indeterminancy, there are "interpretations" that simply are stretch the text beyond any plausable reading.

But the real kicker is that when "the Court is policing the boundaries of the authority delegated to him or her by the Constitution and deciding that detention of citizens is not within what the structure of the Constitution delegates to the President," that is a-ok. Alright, cool, I'm saying that it seems abundantly clear that the president's actions toward non-citizens are in the same playing field (Cf., Plyer). The President has no power to contravene the text of the constitution. When the text says "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law," I take it seriously ("in" italicized to note this is not a general exception during times of war or public danger, but only an exception for those in the armed forces or militia).

3:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

JDMcKay, What is it that you're saying with regard to S.Ct. review? Must the Court always pass independent judgment on Congress/Executive/Agencies' actions?

huh?

I assume that is what you mean when you say "if Presidential (or anyone else's) actions are unconstitutional, then they are unconstitutional. Period."

nope. Can't imagine where you got that.

Because an action isn't just "unconstitutional."

sure it is. Principles exist... or maybe you don't think so?

It has to be unconstitutional according to someone.

I make a distinction between acknowledment and interpretation. Everything you said indicates to me you consider interpreting the constitution a stylized opinion, transient, and subject to the whims of the day.

F:ex, you describe presidential deference as a "principle", which it is not (eg. it's doctrine). GWB suffers from this same mis-perception.

You seem to be saying that it is always the Court that decides. Is this right?

That's what the framers said.

8:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not even disputing Hamdi/Padilla/Rasul. But you're kidding yourself if you think the Court never defers.

I don't, and nowhere did I say so.

10:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jdmckay:

would you mind explaining to the rest of us how the court manages to both pass independent judgment on the law and defer to another body's interpretation?

that is a mystery to at least me.

11:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

would you mind explaining to the rest of us how the court manages to both pass independent judgment on the law and defer to another body's interpretation?

the vast majority of issues never make it to the court. I'd cite Enron/Ca. Energy "crisis" as example in point:
* accusations of various fraudulent actions were made by Ca. officials.
* white house stayed (mostly) silent, ran "liberal ass hole californians" media campaign, & Bush installed his guys at FERC.
* FERC held congressionally mandated authority.
* FERC did nothing, ignoring Ca. officials pleas and not once meeting with them till well after the fact.
* Ca got ripped off +- $12b, w/ancilliary costs over $36b.
* All Ca officials accusations proved true. FERC actually made agreements w/several of perpetrators that they would confess, but confession would never go public.

Ca. had no recourse in courts... they all said it was FERC's deal. FERC/White house
just plain lied. That, my friend, is deference. It's also a damn good example of what happens when deferring to Bush & co AFAIC.

1:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And JDMcKay, your political rant speaks nothing to judicial deference since the case never reached the Court. Judicial deference occurs when the Court is bound by an interpretation of another branch,

Precisely.

not when they never take the case.

If settled and established precedent based on prior reasoning honoring deference, a case need not reach SCOTUS: that they decline review is in itself honoring the doctrine (eg. not a principle, which you seem to refuse to acknowledge).

Previous poster asked for an example: issue I cite is very good one.

10:14 PM  

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